force k |
from: Ciaran Carson, 14 Jun 2009, 15:11 |
Dear John
i would like to thank you for the information you provided
i uploaded a video tribute to the HMS Penelope to youtube and was thinking of making a video for force k and as the HMS Neptune was part of force k even though for not long the crew should get the malta medal as they deserve the medal if they havent been rewarded them as they give there lives as part of force k |
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George Blackwell |
from: rosemary clegg, 26 May 2009, 21:30 |
Thank you John for your help, I look forward to you putting me intouch with Martin.
Rosemary |
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Medals |
from: Mike Newton, 15 May 2009, 20:39 |
John.
I've been wondering if Neptune's crew are entitled to the MALTA Medal
Mike N. |
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ERA 3rd Class Cyril Martin |
from: John McGregor, 15 May 2009, 19:26 |
| Dear Martin. How very good to hear from you and to identify Cyril as the ERA3 on the left of the three ERA's in the photo. William Wright was obviously a good friend as he sent back to his family 2 other photos of Cyril who must have been promoted to ERA3 (Chief Petty Officer) sometime in 1941. This photo is inscribed Pincher Martin, Chief ERA Blackett, ERA's Anderson, Painter, Roach, Dowrich & Tiger Flowers. Of these Martin, Painter and Flowers died in Neptune while the others had left the ship. |
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ERA 4th Class Cyril Richard William Martin |
from: Martin Eddy, 15 May 2009, 09:47 |
This picture appeared on the site in December 2006 and I am pleased to confirm the ERA 3 on the left is my late mother's brother Cyril Martin.
Cyril was the son of Richard and Ethel Martin of Swanvale, Falmouth, Cornwall. He had three younger sisters: the eldest Mrs Sylvia Clay still lives in Falmouth and the youngest Mrs Margaret Lowry lives in Surrey. My mother Mrs Jean Eddy was the middle sister but sadly passed away in 1981.
We found a copy of this picture in an old family album and the sisters remember it well. It has the legend Fleet Club Studio, Alexandria, on the back ~ I believe the ship spent some time there in the summer of 1940. In the picture Cyril is an ERA 3 but his CWGC certificate has him ERA 4th Class at the time of the loss, when he was 25. He is remembered on the Plymouth Naval Memorial.
If it is possible the family would very much appreciate this picture being used alongside Cyril's name on the Roll of Honour in the same way as it has been for William Wright. In this way these shipmates can be remembered together, which we're sure they would have liked. You can still sense the strong bond between them almost seventy years later.
Warmest thanks and congratulations to all who have set up and contributed to this wonderful site.
Martin Eddy
Falmouth |
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Ordnance Artificer 4th Class Reginald Jones |
from: John McGregor, 13 May 2009, 14:51 |
| Hi Jason. Yes, Reginald was one of the 764 Neptune casualties. Aged just 22, he was the son of George and Marion Jones of Tottenham. You are the first of his family to make contact and so far we haven't got a photo of him. How strange about the dream. The Ordnance Artificers specialised in the guns and "4th Class" meant he was a Petty Officer. The silver spoon could have been a gunnery efficiency award. |
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Ord'Art'c'r;R,G,Jones |
from: JasonK.Jones., 11 May 2009, 17:06 |
| Ordnance Artificer Reginald G.Jones was my uncle reggie,the only one of my father's five brothers and three sisters i never got to meet.My dad was only a boy at the time but he remembers his mother telling him his brother reg'was gone she knew as the night before she saw in a dream an image of their dad,who had died the year before,coming from the sea and cradling reg'in his arms and taking back down into the sea,sometime later of course they found out she was right.My dad remembers his mum having reggie's medals and also a silver spoon of some sort which was apparently some sort of gunnery award??.I would love to see a photo of my uncle reg,especially in naval uniform but sadly my dad has none. Thankyou very much,Jason Jones. |
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HMS Penelope & Force K |
from: John McGregor, 11 May 2009, 17:03 |
| Dear Ciaran. Thanks for making contact about your grandfather John Larmour who served in HMS Penelope. A good book about Force K is "Malta Striking Forces" by Peter Smith & Edwin Walker. Neptune was only in charge of the ships of Force K for one operation on 18/19 December 1941. Here is why Penelope was nick-named "pepperpot". Maybe your grandad is in the photo. |
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force k |
from: Ciaran Carson, 11 May 2009, 10:05 |
| my granda john larmour served on hms penelope (hms pepperpot) my dad has been telling me about force k he told me about the hms neptune sinking and that they could do nothing to help and that when the hms penelope left malta on the 8th of april 1942 force k came to an end and the nickname hms pepperpot came from force k i would love to hear more about force k |
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Stoker Frank Dowling |
from: John McGregor, 10 May 2009, 17:10 |
| Hi Cheryl. We received this good photo (FORUM 25Nov06) of your grandfather Frank Dowling from his brother Leonard who presumably is your uncle. What a large family you have! We have also heard from Pamela Graham, another niece Julie Pearson and her daughter Fay. The Commonwealth War graves records his name and official no. and does not mention his parents or wife. We can update this. |
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my grandfather. |
from: cheryl ann pagan, 9 May 2009, 03:01 |
| my grandad was frank dowling who was a stoker on the kandehar. my mother is helen joyce dowling and her sister who recently passed away was june dowling. there was also 7 brothers, douglas,basil,leonard,frank,jonny,harold and cyril who is a half brother. I used to stay with my gran during the summer hols when i was growing up and i so loved her to bits. She always seemed like a strong person and would talk of my grandad constantly. i know she never recovered from his death and she never celebrated xmas again.x |
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Marine George Blackwell |
from: John McGregor, 8 May 2009, 23:10 |
| Dear Rosemary. We were contacted 3 years ago by Martin Ferriday from Highbridge Somerset about his grandfather George Blackwell. His grandmother died within a year and Martin's father was adopted and brought up by her parents who were Ferridays. I will email you and put you in touch with Martin. |
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Marine George Blackwell |
from: Rosemary Clegg, 8 May 2009, 10:47 |
I have been researching the family and military history of men on several local war memorials. One memorial in the village of Little Wenlock Shropshire, has the name of R Blackwell. I have not been able to find information on the man. I now think the correct first initial should be G Blackwell. I found a recording of Monumental inscriptions of Little Wenlock by Shropshire family History Society. They record a small memorial stone with the words"In rememberance of our dear son George who was lost on the Neptune December 19th 1941 age 25 years.
I saw a posting by the grandson of George and wondered if he could help me. |
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Shipwright John Skentelbery |
from: John McGregor, 7 May 2009, 15:21 |
| Dear Corrinne. Here are two photos of Neptune Shipwrights sent by Skentelbery's son David. It is more likely that your father Chief Shipwright William Batt would feature in HMS Ajax photos as he was loaned to Neptune from Ajax on the afternoon of 18th Dec 1941. He was desperately unlucky to be killed only a few hours later. |
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Chief Shipwright William James Batt |
from: Corrinne, 27 Apr 2009, 14:03 |
| ON the photo's page of my newsletter I noticed a picture of Shipwright John Skentlebery and wondered if his relatives have any photos with other shipwrights on as my grandad William James Batt was Chief Shipwright on the Neptune. It would make my day if I could find out more about him. Thanks to John I know he wasn't supposed to be on the Neptune but was called on at the last minute due to someone being ill we assume. He was previously on H.M.S.Ajax. Any news would be most welcome. Thank you. |
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Stoker Frederick Paskell |
from: John McGregor, 26 Apr 2009, 09:51 |
| It seems that the medal belonged to Sergeant William Frederick Paskell of the Middlesex Regiment who was killed on 23 April 1917 - maybe at Passchendaele? Maureen's father Frederick William Paskell was born four weeks later on 19 May 1917 and it seems he was named after Sgt Paskell. Maureen is trying to establish the exact relationship. |
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Stoker Frederick Paskell |
from: John McGregor, 24 Apr 2009, 06:55 |
| Thanks for posting this message Brian. Frederick Paskell's daughter Maureen is indeed very interested in this medal. Her father's medals have been lost for many years. We have spoken by phone and Maureen will also be in touch soon. Thank you also for saying you are not expecting payment for this precious item. |
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medal forw.f paskell |
from: BRIAN JONES, 19 Apr 2009, 10:42 |
| I have come across a memorial medal for William Frederick Paskell if anyone is interested in this item please get in touch. |
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Ordinary Telegraphist Leslie A. Collins, |
from: John McGregor, 19 Apr 2009, 09:09 |
Dear Bill Thank you so much for making contact. You are the first who has mentioned Ord Tel Leslie Collins who died in Kandahar. It is very nice that he is remembered with such admiration. I will send you an email with the photo of the Kandahar crew attached and please let me know if you identify him. You will also find it on the FORUM page in my answer to another Kandahar contact on 24 Oct 08.
I am glad we are helping in your family research.
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HMS Kandahar |
from: Bill Jones, 19 Apr 2009, 02:26 |
Dear John McGregor,
Noticing Elizabeth Lewis's message to you of Nov 18, 2007, would you be kind enough to share with me the photo she asks you for of the crew of HMS Kandahar?
I believe it should contain the image of Leslie A. Collins, Ordinary Telegraphist. Les was a visitor to my parents' house in 1939-40 when I was only 7-8 years old, when he came to visit my older brother. Both were members of our church in Birmingham, and I remember so clearly my mother's admiration of Les's conduct and politeness, which she advised me to emulate. Both he and my brother were killed in the war, my brother on Malta, therefore not that far from where Les died.
I am writing a family history, and this information that I found on your informative website is a fluke of the first order! I can't believe my luck. If I can include a photo of Les in the history, it would touch a lot of peoples' hearts.
Very gratefully,
Bill Jones
Rye, NH. USA.
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Leading Stoker Thomas Black |
from: John McGregor, 18 Apr 2009, 09:55 |
| Hi Angie The bandsmen shown are all Royal Marines and we have identified about half of them. Thomas's son Duncan (who must be your uncle) has also mentioned that his father was in the ship's band for social events. He sent a good photo of Thomas which is on our Roll of Honour page. |
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Thomas F Black |
from: Angie Mearns, 16 Apr 2009, 15:01 |
Hi
My grandfather's young brother was Thomas Black who was on the Neptune. We believe he was a saxophone player, we have been looking at the photograph of the band on this website, can anyone name the men in the photograph - many thanks
Angie Mearns |
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Painter 4th Class Stanley Payne RNZN |
from: John McGregor, 31 Mar 2009, 05:46 |
Hi Debbie
It is great to hear from you and Stanley Payne is on the list of NZ casualties. No, we have not heard from a relative of him before and we do not have a photo, but it wonderful that you have heard his voice on the NZ Xmas radio tape from 1941 (never broadcast after Neptune was sunk). I will be in touch by email. |
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Stanley Payne |
from: Debbie Platt, 28 Mar 2009, 08:28 |
Hi
I have recently started researching my family history and my Dad talked about his half brother Stan who
"went down on the Neptune". He didnt really talk much about his family and they had all passed away before I was born, but was wondering if anyone has any photos or contact details. I listened to the Radio NZ Broadcast and he passes a message (via Desmonds McCauley) back to his wife and son, (which would be my cousin) so if anyone had any contact details for them or even a name I would be grateful.
Regards
Debbie Platt |
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AB Lindsey "Bob" Ashton |
from: John McGregor, 11 Feb 2009, 07:08 |
Norma Hudson daughter of our one survivor who had just unveiled the new Neptune memorial in Dunedin then stayed with Royden Thomson, son of a Neptune casualty. She sent me this amazing story on how she found Bob Ashton's relatives with the help of a psychic cat:
"Royden and Sandie Thomson returned from the ceremony in Dunedin to their house in Cromwell to find a strange cat inside. Sandie recognised the cat as a neighbours and took it round to the house. They told her they had been away to a special ceremony in Dunedin and had left the cat with friends. Turns out the man in Cromwell is the brother of Bob Ashton, a Neptune casualty, and his family had been to the same memorial ceremony as we had and not known. It took a cat to bring us all together. As we were staying with Royden at the time we all spent a lovely evening together sharing stories of Neptune. The coincidences surrounding relatives of Neptune crew just get better." He was delighted when I told him about "Minefield" and the possibility of inserting his brother's photo, as was his mother. |
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GEORGE NEEDHAM - STOKER |
from: Margaret Savage, 24 Jan 2009, 23:31 |
Further to my last posting re George Needham, who was lost on the Neptune. I have had some info from my uncle, who knew him when he was in the navy and my uncle was just a small boy. He is now 78 but has managed to find a picture of himself with George when he came home on leave and my uncle is posing with his Neptune hat on.
George would probably have been about 90 now had he lived.
He would come home on leave and go to visit my grandmother (uncle Brian and my mother's mum) and she was a great favourite of his.
It is nice to finally see the picture of someone I have only heard about over the years from my mother. But it is also sad to think what a life he might have had and missed.
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Stoker George Needham |
from: Brian Denial, 20 Jan 2009, 19:57 |
Further to my niece's correspondence regarding my cousin, Stoker G Needham.
I enclose a photo of my cousin taken shortly before the Neptune Disaster. I am the boy in the picture. I will be 76 years of age in March of this year. George's brother Frank also a stoker was in the same convoy. He survived the war and lived to old age. |
 Stoker George Needham |
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Stoker George Needham |
from: John McGregor, 3 Jan 2009, 16:24 |
| After a few telephone calls "George from Sheffield" turns out to be Stoker George Needham who was killed in HMS Neptune. So the good news is we have contact with the family of yet another Neptune casualty and possibly his photo too. In total we have heard from relatives of 304 Neptune and 24 Kandahar casualties and have photos of 282 of them and 31 more who were there but survived. |
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George from Sheffield |
from: John McGregor, 1 Jan 2009, 18:08 |
| Dear Margaret I did a search on the Neptune casualty list and found 8 casualties from Sheffield but only one called George. His wife was Evelyn Burdett. I hope you can find out more from relatives. |
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Unknown sailor |
from: John McGregor, 24 Dec 2008, 18:48 |
| Thanks Rorie. The next edition of Minefield will be published in 2009 as a tribute to Neptune and Kandahar casualties and currently we have 320 photos. Also those who were there that night and survived will be included. Some pages will contain photos of those who served in Neptune before she sank but unless someone recognises and identifies the unknown sailor he won't be included. |
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Unidentified Able Seaman of HMS Neptune |
from: Rorie Grieve, 23 Dec 2008, 09:03 |
| Hello, John, As previously suggested, I am attaching a photograph which has on its reverse the caption "Capetown, Feb 1939" just in case a visitor to the forum might recognise the subject. Having looked through the photographs on the Forum and in the first edition of Minefield, I do not think this cheerful crew member is yet represented and I know you would agree that it would be great to put a face to yet another name on the Roll of Honour. |
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Dunedin memorial dedication |
from: John McGregor, 19 Dec 2008, 19:47 |
| The Dunedin dedication went very well with 200 attending. and congratulations to the organisers, Nigel McPherson and Royden Thompson. I have attached 4 photos of the memorial. |
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HMS Neptune Memorial, Dunedin NZ |
from: Nigel McPherson, 22 Nov 2008, 03:03 |
| To Hudson Biggs and any others interested. Your message to John McGregor noted. The date of the unveiling however is Friday 12th. December. The location is the Cross Wharf Otago Harbour (Dunedin) at 1845 hrs. |
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Royal Marine Band |
from: John McGregor, 21 Nov 2008, 12:16 |
| Your theory may be correct David. Two more relatives of the Neptune band have recently made contact, both of the bandsmen featuring in the Simonstown photo - Musician Hayward Goddard is the drummer behind the large drum and Musician Charles Plain is the saxophonist 2nd from right. |
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Royal Marine Band |
from: David Cranham, 18 Nov 2008, 11:41 |
Dear John,
My uncle David Dick is bottom row 2nd.left with his hand on Musician Poole's shoulder,holding a cigarette, band leader Joyce is next to him, the young man top right with his sleeves rolled up is in the photograph of the band on the quay at Simonstown.
having compared photos of Musicians published in Neptunes Legacy and Minefield I'm sure their are other band members in the photo,but I suppose they were all shipmates together and such a gathering of Marines and Musicians would not be unusual.
Regards David |
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Able Seaman Hudson Biggs |
from: John McGregor, 18 Nov 2008, 10:52 |
Thanks for your message, Hudson. Checking Neptune's crew list you must be a relative of Able Seaman Hudson Biggs. We have already been sent a photo of him in a batch of NZ crew members. I will be in touch by email.
Later - a much better photo of Hudson has been submitted.
You are right that a memorial is being dedicated on 12 Dec 08 to the Dunedin based NZ's lost and I hope you will be there at the ceremony. I am passing your name to the organiser Nigel McPherson brother of a Neptune casualty. |
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Neptune Memorial - Dunedin, NZ |
from: Hudson Biggs, 17 Nov 2008, 06:29 |
| Hello, attached is a scanned clipping from the Otago Daily Times, Dunedin, NZ dated 15 Nov 2008. It details a proposed memorial to the Otago sailors who perished on the Neptune in Dec 1941. |
 HMS Neptune Memorial - Dunedin, New Zealand |
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Wireman Peter Ovenstone |
from: John McGregor, 16 Nov 2008, 11:43 |
| Dear Alex What a very good school project. Peter Ovenstone aged 19 was the son of Thomas and Maggie Ovenstone of St Monance Fife so you may be able to track down some of his relatives. Is the school nearby? He was one of just 8 Wiremen (now known as electricians) in Neptune and you can see the list on the Plymouth War Memorial in a FORUM page message dated 8 Aug 07. The message was placed by Windy Gailes, a nephew of Wireman Gailes. |
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Wireman Peter Ovenstone, HMS Neptune |
from: Alex Crawford, 14 Nov 2008, 22:01 |
Hi,
Well done on a very informative website.
I am currently putting together a Roll of Honour for a local school in Fife. One of the names on the Roll is that of Peter Ovenstone. A look through the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website shows that Peter (19) was a Wireman onboard HMS Neptune when she was sunk.
Would you have any further details on Peter? I have yet to track down any survining relatives as I have only just started this project.
Regards,
Alex
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Boy 1st Class William Jeffrey Dodd |
from: John McGregor, 10 Nov 2008, 07:29 |
| Hi Chris Welcome to our Neptune community! Checking the casualty list, Boy 1st Class William Jeffrey Dodd aged 17 from Atherstone Warwickshire, was indeed killed in HMS Neptune. Please could your dad find the photo of him and his mates so that it can be included in the 2nd edition of "Minefield". I will be in touch by email as all photos of casualties are very important to us. |
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Geoff Dodd |
from: CHRIS DODD, 6 Nov 2008, 04:14 |
Dear john
My dads brother Geoff Dodd was on the neptune im sure my dad still has photos of his brother with his ship mates that might be of intrest. |
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grandad's postcard |
from: John McGregor, 5 Nov 2008, 07:22 |
| Dear Paul I am afraid the photo you attached was too large to fit on the Forum. Any photos should be reduced to less than 500Kb. If your grandad produced a postcard of Neptune please send it to my email address johnmcgregor@hmsneptune.com |
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grandads postcard and cap ribons |
from: paul john cox, 2 Nov 2008, 20:14 |
| i was looking through my grandads photo collection,he was a fleet photographer and made phots into postcards and other duties.he served on many ships.his name was ernest edwin cox |
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Neptune cap |
from: John McGregor, 29 Oct 2008, 12:31 |
| Dear Frank Whenever a sailor joins a ship or shore establishment he gets a cap with the ship's name on it. The current HMS Neptune is the Clyde Naval Base at Faslane in Scotland. So a cap is not rare but a nice gift to a friend or visitor. |
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HMS Neptune Hat |
from: frank pauciello, 25 Oct 2008, 19:02 |
I have a round HMS Neptune hat that i got at a submarine base in Scotland in 1999. It appears new. Are these hats used in training or newly made in honor of the Neptune?
Frank |
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Joseph Cain |
from: John McGregor, 24 Oct 2008, 07:46 |
| Dear Graeme How fascinating that your wife's grandad was a survivor from HMS Kandahar. No we have not got a crew list and I doubt that one exists as all 174 survivors were swiftly sent to other ships and told not to discuss the tragedy. What we have got is an excellent photo of the entire Kandahar crew taken in summer 1941 which probabaly includes your grandad. We have an even better one of the engine room department. What was his branch? |
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Joseph Cain |
from: Graeme Watson, 30 Sep 2008, 08:50 |
Hello
I would like to know whether I can view the crew list for HMS Kandahr. I understand that my wife's grandfather Joe Cain from the Isle of Man was on the boat during the 1941 campaign and was one of those rescued.
Hope you can help
Regards
Graeme Watson
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Musician Dick in Photo of 15 RM's 20June08 |
from: John McGregor, 29 Sep 2008, 06:31 |
| It is an interesting proposition David as the numbers (15) are about right, however Marine Ronald Dubber is back row second from left (identified by his son) and Sergeant William Crocker is front row right (identified by his daughter). Musician Cyril Poole is bottom row left. Which is your uncle David Dick and is Bandmaster Joyce in the centre? |
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Musician Cyril Poole |
from: Davi Dick Cranham, 26 Sep 2008, 07:58 |
Good Morning John,
I am glad to see the website is still attracting new interest, I notice a relative of musician Cyril Poole has been in contact and you have again published the photo of 15 Royal Marines.
My uncle David Dick is in the photo as is Bandleader Joyce,
and possibly 2 other musicians, could this be a photograph of the Band members?
Regards David Dick Cranham |
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Stoker 2nd class Herbert Payne |
from: John McGregor, 23 Sep 2008, 05:44 |
Hi Janet and its good to hear from you again and Herbert's photo is attached. Yes there is another delay in publishing the second edition of "Minefield". Would all those who have contributed so generously for their copies, please be patient. The new edition will be nearly twice as large and Adrian just hasnt been able to finish it but it will come out sometime in 2009. The advantage of the delay is that more and more photos of casualties are being received - another 23 in 2008. We now have 310 casualty photos.
One Neptune book which has hust been printed is "Sole Survivor - One Man's journey" by Norma Hudson daughter of Norman Walton. It is very moving and very well written and I warmly recommend it. The book launch will be combined with our AGM on November 15th in the Union Jack Club. Details will shortly be shown on the BOOKS page of this website. |
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new book |
from: Janet Stonestreet, 21 Sep 2008, 14:53 |
I was wondering when the next edition of Mediterranean Minefield will be coming as we have sent photos and information about a relation Stoker 2nd class Herbert Payne who went down with the Neptune.
I look forward to hearing from you. |
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father was a soldier in the WWII (African front) |
from: John McGregor, 21 Sep 2008, 14:16 |
| Dear Fulvio Thanks you so much for your comment - our first from Italy. When did your father serve in North Africa? Is he still alive and was he in Libya in 1941? If so his memories would be valuable indeed. |
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Walton and HMS Neptune |
from: Fulvio Venturi, 21 Sep 2008, 07:34 |
This morning I read Mr. Walton's obituary and his incredible biography on The Neptune association site. I am very interested to war stories and I think you do a great job for the memory of those guys whose lost their lives in such tragic events. My father too was a soldier in the WWII (African front) and my grandfather had been an able seaman of Regia Marina, serving on Rn Benedetto Brin, Rn Citta di Sassari and Rn Rosolino Pilo during WWI. He had been sunk twice also.
All my best,
Fulvio Venturi |
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Surgeon Lieutenant Cameron Fraser |
from: John McGregor, 15 Sep 2008, 05:57 |
Dear Caroline I was very pleased to hear from you as we have been trying to get a photo of Cameron for a long time. In 2005 we produced "Minefield" - a photographic tribute to the casualties and it contained 205 photos. Since then we have been sent more and more photos and now have 310 of the 836 who died in Neptune and Kandahar. A couple of pages is devoted to the two doctors but not the dentist (Cameron).
I tried your email address without success. Please email me at johnmcgregor@hmsneptune.com as I would like to have a chat.
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hms Neptune |
from: caroline meredith, 12 Sep 2008, 08:52 |
| My sister found this site - very sad to read about - my uncle Cameron Fraser was on the Neptune - we will send you a photograph - thank you for site which is wonderful caroline |
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Petty Officer Stoker Gerald Gundry |
from: John McGregor, 11 Sep 2008, 06:08 |
Dear Janet How good to hear from you. The photo was taken when Gerald was a Stoker so it was probably before he joined Neptune, however if anyone recognises the other two please leave a message.
Gerald's widow Gwen sent this lovely photo of their wedding which is included in MINEFIELD. |
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Petty Officer Stoker W .Gerald Gundry |
from: Janet Vivyan, 6 Aug 2008, 13:14 |
| I have only recently found this site. Gerald was my mother's cousin and although I don't remember him I do remember the sadness at the time he died. This photo came from my mother's collection and I wonder if anyone can identify the others with him. His name is on the memorial on Plymouth Hoe. |
.jpg) Gerald Gundry (centre) others unknown |
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Neptune and Bismarck |
from: Daniel Underbakke, 1 Aug 2008, 16:49 |
I have read several books about the pursuit and sinking of the Bismarck in May 1941. Neptune is always listed as part of the Home Fleet, but then it disappears from the story. Can anybody tell my why Neptune doesn't get mentioned other than in the order of battle.
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Memorial stone for John E Stewart - Lead telegraphist |
from: Sarndra, 13 Jul 2008, 07:32 |
Howdy.... was cemetery trawling today and came across John's memorial stone along with his mother at Waikaraka Cemetery, Onehunga, Auckland New Zealand.
Have attached. |
 John E Stewart memorial - at bottom - on mothers headstone |
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Petty Officer Stoker Albert Cregoe |
from: John McGregor, 27 Jun 2008, 08:34 |
| His niece Pamela Williams has sent a photo of Albert - published in MINEFIELD. I hope Maureen Axworthy will see this and make contact. Is she in the telephone book? We have great interest in contacting the descendants of all casualties, especially sons and daughters. |
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find relative |
from: k maclennan, 21 Jun 2008, 19:23 |
| my great uncle called albert cregoe he was a petty officer stoker on the hms neptune . we believe he had a daughter called maureen axworthy who was adopted after her mum passed from tb .she was adopted by a family called th axworthys who lived in st budeaux in plymouth devon. her birth mother was called olive surname unknown but she lived in stonehouse plymouth we would like to trace maureen as her dads siters children are here living in plymouth can anyone help us find her thankyou k maclennan. |
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Poole, Cyril E Musician |
from: John McGregor, 20 Jun 2008, 08:23 |
Dear Carol
You can ask for his service records from: 2nd Sea Lords Department, DPNS(N) 2, Building 1/152,HM Naval Base Portsmouth, PO1 3PX Quote Neptune casualty. It may cost £30.
The photo of Cyril came from his nephew in law Peter Hardiman. He is also in the group of 15 RM's taken on 17 Aug 41 - bottom left. |
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Poole, Cyril E Musician |
from: Carol Sailes, 1 Jun 2008, 19:39 |
Hello John
Can you tell me where I can get the service records for Cyril E Poole, who was a cousin of my Father? Can you also tell me where you got his photograph? That is the only photo of him that the family now have, and it was great to see it.
By the way, his entry on the Commonwealth War Graves website states that he was 19, when he was, in fact, only just turned 18.
Best wishes and a big thank you on a great site.
Carol Sailes |
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Henry Field |
from: John McGregor, 15 May 2008, 18:19 |
| Hello e.j. I confirm that Henry Field was not a Neptune casualty. I have no method of finding out whether he served in Neptune before she sank. If you are a direct descendant then you can ask for his service record from the Second Sea Lord's department. |
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hms neptune research |
from: e.j., 15 May 2008, 10:08 |
hi, i am doing some research re: henry field(s) crew of hms neptune. can you please help. Back in the late 1930's when the hms neptune was here in south africa, a man by the name of Henry Field(s), claims to be a crew member of the hms neptune. can you please varify if there indeed was a crew member by that name. He did not neccissarily perish in the sad December 1941 catastrophe. he may have been part of the crew before then. i would just like to find out more on henry field(s). can you please assist?
thank you
e.j. |
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Thanks |
from: Adrian St. Clair (Author of Mediterranean Minefield), 12 May 2008, 19:27 |
I wish to add my thanks on behalf of the Association for all the material that is coming to Commander John McGregor, which will be, for the greater part, added into the second edition, which seems to be expanding rapidly. It's amazing to see so many stories. I lost my uncle, my father's brother, who was only 19 years old, and my grandmother died as a result of the shock of losing her dearest twin.
Please would any relative of a Neptune or Kandahar casualty who hasn't yet madecontact, please send a copy of their relative's photo urgently. The absolute deadline for inclusion in the second edition is June 30th. |
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Able Seaman Cecil Wood RNZN |
from: John McGregor, 11 May 2008, 05:55 |
Thanks for your message and how very good to hear from you. Remarkably I have a group photo of 10 Neptune sailors sent by Peter Goldsmith nephew of Able Seaman Stan Kingdon RNZN and it includes Cecil Wood seated front row second from left. I posted it on the website on 29 Aug 2007. From discussions with relatives the sailors (all of whom died just five weeks later) are as follows:
Back Row:
Able Seaman Frederick Windsor from Newfoundland (previously believed to be AB Abel Keefe also a Newfie)
Able Seaman George Dennison - New Zealand Navy
Able Seaman Joc Smith RN
Able Seaman Eric Haines - South African Navy
Able Seaman Stanley Kingdon - New Zealand Navy
Boy Seaman Edgar Holden RN aged 17
Front Row:
Able Seaman Ross Buckley - New Zealand Navy
Able Seaman Cecil Wood - New Zealand Navy
Leading Seaman Reginald Turley RN - buried in Tripoli - we visted his grave on April 26th.
Able Seaman Frank Calder South African Navy
I can send you two of the three books from our webpage BOOKS but Minefield is out of stock (sold out) and the second edition will be published this autumn containing about 320 photos of casualties and more are received every week - quite remakable after 67 years. Please send me your postal address and they will be sent. |
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Books - Able Seaman Cecil Wood RNZN |
from: John Gilbert, 8 May 2008, 07:58 |
My wife had an uncle that went down with the Neptune able seamen Cecil Wood a New Zealander we live in Australia and would like to purchase the (2) books shown on the front of this article cost and postage please to Australia
John Gilbert |
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AB Wallace Hubbard (South Africa) |
from: John McGregor, 8 May 2008, 06:07 |
| Thanks for the message Sybil. Photo of Wallace (sent by you) attached. |
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WALLACE HUBBARD |
from: SYBIL BANISTER-JONES, 5 May 2008, 14:14 |
| If anyone has any personal details of my uncle Wallace Hubbard who died on the Neptune, I would be very grateful |
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Roy and Basil Atkinson |
from: Jennifer A Jones, 2 May 2008, 06:34 |
I have an old family photo of another pair of brothers who were so tragically lost when HMS Neptune went down.
They were Leading Seaman Roy Vincent Atkinson and Able Seaman Basil Mervyn Atkinson aged 22yrs and 20yrs respectively in 1941. The photo is taken at their home in Hastings, Hawke Bay. New Zealand just before they sailed off on their fatal voyage. They were the sons of Christopher and Fanny Atkinson.
The Atkinson boys were cousins of my mother, Frances May Jacques, nee Cooley, and I found the photo while tracing our family history. I would dearly like to contact anyone who has further information about the Atkinson boys and any of their family especially of any who may still be living in New Zealand My email address is supplied to John McGregor. |
 Roy Vincent Atkinson and Basil Mervyn Atkinson |
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Cook James Lunn |
from: John McGregor, 1 May 2008, 18:26 |
| Dear Val What a nice surprise for you! The photo of James Lunn was sent by his brother Owen, who lives in Victoria, Canada. It was too late for the first edition but will be included in the second edition to be published this autumn. |
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James G Lunn - Cook (O) |
from: Val Bethell, 30 Apr 2008, 19:27 |
I am tracing my Fathers family history.
James Lunn was my Fathers Cousin.
I was very suprised to find your site, and even more suprised to find a photo of him.
I would love to hear from anyone that has any information on him.
I would also like to say how interesting & informative I found your site.
Regards
Val Bethell ( Nee Greenhalgh ) |
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Sergeant Arnold Reid RAF |
from: John McGregor, 27 Apr 2008, 18:53 |
This is a quite extraordinary story and very much part of the Neptune/Kandahar tragedy. Flight Sergeant Dennis Reason and his crew including Sergeant AJ Reid and four others found HMS Kandahar in a brilliant mission some 50 miles from where they had been told to go and, not using radio but by flashing signals to each ship in turn, directed HMS Jaguar to her, thereby saving 173 members of Kandahar's crew. In a desperately sad sequel the Wellington with all her crew disappeared in her very next mission. I can do no better than to quote from Wing Commander Tony Spooner's book "In Full Flight". Spooner was the boss of the Special Duties Wellingtons in Malta:
"Captain Agnew, to save further losses took the rest of the Force to safety out of this highly lethal area. It was an unenviable decision to have to make. He and Rory O'Connor had long been together, and were old friends from Dartmouth and Whale Island days. But Rory O'Connor in Neptune, together with all her company, and Kandahar's, too, had to be abandoned to the sea in enemy waters at night.
Aurora and Penelope were both damaged, as their paravanes had touched off several mines. Force K and the remains of Force H limped back to Malta at reduced speed.
Captain Agnew was standing and staring at the walls of his cabin as he told me about the action. His face was half turned away from me. His voice told me of the strain.
"You understand, Spooner," he said, "that I had to give the order to withdraw." There was no doubt in his voice, only a deep, echoing sadness.
Neptune and her crew were gone. But we bucked up a lot next day when first we received a message from a patrolling aircraft of 69 Squadron that Kandahar was somehow still afloat. She had lost forty-three feet of her stern, but skill and craftsmanship in her making and the calmness and discipline of her crew had somehow enabled her, or two-thirds of her, to keep above the surface of the sea. She was over a hundred miles from Malta and obviously immobile. She had no engines, no power, and no fighting value. She could send no signals. She was such a sitting duck that our hopes soon fell. It seemed certain that during the day an enemy plane or destroyer or even a Motor Torpedo Boat would be sure to apply the coup-de-grace. Either that or she would sink without further attack.
The destroyer Jaguar was ready to put to sea again, and a plan was swiftly prepared. The ship would go out that night and would try to get close enough to the sinking Kandahar to pick up those of her crew who had not been killed. It was hoped also that a few of Neptune's survivors might have been able to get aboard Kandahar. Would I go out and help?
The A.S.V. beacon we had made for the Navy had gone down with Neptune so the task wasn't going to be at all easy. I enquired from my friends in Naval Operations what the chances were. They said it was 10 to 1 against Kandahar even being afloat. We only had one plane serviceable, and I decided to send Dennis Reason, who hadn't flown for a week or so. He had been training a second pilot to our specialised work, and he had told me that his crew was now capable of carrying out any job. I regarded this rescue attempt as no more than a training exercise for Reason (flight-sergeant now), as I had been assured that if she wasn't already sunk the Italians were certain to send Kandahar, powerless and stationary, to the bottom as soon as darkness fell.
As it happened, Reason found Kandahar still just afloat. She was listing and low in the water. He radioed this news and hastened back to make contact with the on-rushing Jaguar and to guide her to the right position. Also, on his own initiative, he carried out a search to the south, from where enemy forces would most likely be coming. To his dismay he located a force of Motor Torpedo Boats on their way. They were closer to Kandahar than was Jaguar and would clearly get to the stricken ship first. At this point he displayed a touch of greatness. He had observed that the enemy torpedo boats were slightly off-track and would, if they held their course, pass to one side by a mile or so of Kandahar. Could he, he wondered, get them so far off track that they would miss altogether? It was the only hope. He thereupon flew back to Kandahar but to one side and, when about thirty miles distant from Kandahar, he proceeded to put up the best pyrotechnical display he possibly could. He jettisoned his drift-taking flame floats and left them bobbing on the water; then, climbing high, he launched flare after flare, and as these drifted down he dived down to go skimming over the water firing all his guns upwards. Tracer bullets thus flew upwards as flares drifted down.
The ruse worked. The enemy boats altered course and sped towards the display. And by the time they realised their error, Reason had guided Jaguar alongside the stricken Kandahar and, in a flurry of frenzied activity, Jaguar safely took off all 173 men aboard her. A few minutes later Kandahar rolled over and sank - torpedoed by Jaguar to prevent her falling into enemy hands.
When the survivors reached port almost the first action they took was to ask the Wellington crew to visit them. The party was to be held on board one of the naval cruisers. Reason and his crew were all away from camp. "Chiefy" gave me some clues where they might be, and the Navy set forth to round them up. One by one they were located: all except the principal guest. Eventually they found Dennis Reason emerging from church as it was now Sunday. I kept well clear but I gathered that the party was a vast success. One twenty-one-year-old flight sergeant and his crew were chaired, feted, feasted and cheered. When it was all over I gave them all a few days leave and they went off to Gozo, the smaller island to the north of Malta.
I was absolutely elated at Reason's great success. We had flown together for nearly a year, and we had done over fifty operational flights sitting inches apart. I felt entitled to regard him as a protege. Also, I now knew for certain that in him I had another first-rate crew. This was good news, too, as David Beaty and I had carried almost all the load to that point.
A few days later Reason took his crew on a search for enemy ships and had the Fleet Air Arm torpedo-carrying biplanes at Hal Far at readiness. He and his crew went out in high spirits, They never came back. It was less than a week since he had saved 173 men. And we never knew what became of him, Was it our old enemy ice? Did an unkind fate decide to burden him with a faulty engine? Our Wellingtons wouldn't fly with one inoperative. Did the lack of an accurate altimeter lead him into the waves as he searched low? Did the absence of any proper weather report lure him to his destruction? Or did he and his crew die gloriously attacking the enemy?
All I know was that an unbelievable event had happened; that my eager, young, fresh-faced companion-in-arms was gone, And I felt as empty within as Captain Agnew must have felt when forced to abandon his old shipmate to his certain death.
Flight-Sergeant Dennis Reason, from somewhere in Stafford, I salute you. Before you died you proved yourself.
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H.M.S. Kandahar |
from: Mr M Sanderson, 12 Apr 2008, 21:42 |
Recently I visited Malta on behalf of my stepsister to try to unravel the mystery of her father Sgt A.J.Reid who was lost in action
as crew member of a wellington Bomber on the 23rd Dec 1941.
I now know that he served in Malta Special Duties Flight.
Three days prior to his death on the night of the 20th his plane piloted by Flight Sgt Reason led H.M.S. Jaguar to the stricken Kandahar and also decoyed enemy destroyers away.
In gratidude the Royal Navy held a party for the crew of
the plane.
I would dearly like to hear from any Kandahar Survivors as it would mean a lot to my stepsister.
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Anderson twins |
from: John McGregor, 11 Apr 2008, 11:15 |
| For a mother to have lost both her twin sons was so desperately sad. She would have heard the news on 26 Dec 41 as did all the other families and one must suspect that it led to her death just five days later. |
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William John & Henry Bruce Anderson |
from: Derrick Hodgson, 11 Apr 2008, 03:56 |
| I have located a picture of the Anderson twins who were tragically killed on the HMS Neptune 19/20 Dec 1941. They lived in an area called Glendowie not a stones throw away from where I live. It is so sad to think their mum died 10 days later. |
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William John & Henry Bruce Anderson |
from: Derrick Hodgson, 11 Apr 2008, 03:33 |
The above were Able Seamen aboard the HMS Neptune at the time of her sinking. They were twins. Firstly I am no relation however I was walking my dog in the Purewa Cemetery here in Auckland NZ and I noticed the attached plaques acknowledging William John and Henry Bruce Anderson as being 'lost at sea' aboard the HMS Neptune. This intrigued me so I read on. There was another plaque of the mother of the above seamen. She died on the 31st Dec 1941. Thirdly there was a plaque of the father of William and Henry who lived a long life and died 87yrs young. I did a little research, found your site and noticed the sinking of the Neptune accurred on the 19th/20th Dec 1941 and that there mother Charlotte May Anderson died on the 31st Dec 1941. What happened to her I do not know maybe she died of a broken heart. William and Henry's mum and dad were married in the year of 1920 (Folio no: 04434) Charlotte's maiden name was Webster.
I submit the picture William and Henry's plaque in recognition of this family who made a difference in this world.
Regards,
Derrick Hodgson
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 Plaque of William John and Henry Bruce Anderson |
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Lt Peter Arbuthnot |
from: John McGregor, 11 Apr 2008, 03:30 |
I am indeed very interested to hear from anyone with links to Lt Peter Arbuthnot who had the key job of Navigating Officer of HMS Neptune. His family was also close to that of Captain Rory O'Conor who specifically asked him to join him in Neptune. His father was Admiral Sir Geoffrey Arbithnot - a well known naval family. I have heard from the families of 36 of the 44 officers on board. Another reason is that Peter's father, who was in an excellent position to know how to do it, made very detailed investigations into what happened and why, and I would dearly like to see the result.
So please do send me the stills from HMS Kent. |
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Lt Peter Arbuthnot |
from: Paul Seaton, 11 Apr 2008, 00:47 |
I have some movie film from the Imp. War Mus apparently showing Peter Arbuthnot ( Killed, Neptune) earlier in his career on the bridge of HMS Kent out in the far east 1939. ( My interest is in the Kent as my late father served on her )
I am looking for photos of Peter A to be sure which person ( in the film I have) he is. (The film was shot by Lt Commander George Blundell of the Kent).
I wondered if you could help in any way ? I could email you a still or 2 from the film .
Hoping to hear from you
Paul Seaton |
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Named HMS NEPTUNE CIGARETTE CASE |
from: Donna McDonald, 6 Apr 2008, 07:47 |
| I HAVE AN ENGLISH MADE CHROME PLATED EMU BRAND CIGARETTE CASE. THE FRONT IS ENGRAVED WITH HMS NEPTUNE AND THE INITALS B.L. OR POSSIBLY R.L. DOES ANYONE KNOW WHO THIS COULD HAVE BELONGED TO. |
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horace jack broughton |
from: John McGregor, 6 Apr 2008, 06:14 |
| Neptune certainly visited Gibraltar, Simonstown and Alexandria where some got to see the pyramids, but she definitely didn't go to Murmansk. Maybe he was serving in another ship on a Russian convoy after being lucky enough to have left Neptune before she sank. |
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horace jack broughton |
from: graham broughton, 4 Apr 2008, 09:50 |
Graham Broughton again.
Not much to add but the only thing I have left of my dads time on the Neptune is a crucifix he bought in the middle east I think it was Cairo and although he wasnt religeous I think he bought it because it was war and maybe it just might help, well as far as Im concerned it must have because he escaped the sinking by one day! I would like to know the journeys that Neptune sailed because dad talked about, Murmansk, Gib, Simonstown and the piramids so they saw a hell of a lot of different climates and cultures.And I still would like to see more photos because I am sure that someone out there has one with my dad on.
ps keep up the great work because we as relatives owe it to those great men who must have had terrifying times and endured much suffering at the last. |
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Musician David Dick |
from: John McGregor, 3 Apr 2008, 06:09 |
| Thanks for the photo of Musician David Dick as best man at a wedding. If anyone recognises the bridegroom (a Leading Seaman Gunner) who may have served in Neptune, please make contact. A guess is that the wedding took place in July 41 in South Africa on Neptune's passage around the Cape. |
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Musician David Dick |
from: David Dick Cranham, 1 Apr 2008, 17:58 |
| My uncle Musician David Dick officiating as best man at a wedding possibly a shipmate from Neptune |
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James William Bull AB |
from: John McGregor, 31 Mar 2008, 06:16 |
| Dear Robert Good to hear from you and Yes your grandfather James Bull was a Neptune casualty. No we haven't had any information on him - yet. Have you a photo as we are finalising the second edition of MINEFIELD? There is still time to include it. I will send you an email with further details of the Association. |
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James William Bull AB |
from: Robert Bull, 24 Mar 2008, 17:19 |
| Does anyone have any information about my Grandfather James William Bull. |
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Stoker Eric Sanders |
from: John McGregor, 23 Mar 2008, 07:03 |
| Miraculously Samantha's cousin Steve Sanders in Australia, whom she has never been in touch with before, has produced this good photo of their uncle Eric Sanders |
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Stoker Eric Sanders |
from: John McGregor, 7 Mar 2008, 07:22 |
Dear Samantha Good to hear from you again. I have emailed you the address I had for Stephen Sanders who also enquired about Eric on the Forum page in Dec 2005. I hope you get in touch with him and that one of you can find a photo of Eric from a mutual relative for the next edition of "Minefield" due out this autumn. Stephen was a submariner and I knew a lot of the Aussie submariners who came over here for training from my time in submarines.
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ERIC SANDERS STOKER 2ND CLASS |
from: SAMANTHA SANDERS, 5 Mar 2008, 12:11 |
| IM TRYING TO FIND INFO OR EVEN BETTER A PHOTO OF MY RELATIVE ERIC SANDERS WHO WAS A CASUALTY ON HMS NEPTUNE AGED JUST 18 YEARS.I WOULD GREATLY APPRECIATE ANY INFO NO MATTER HOW SMALL,THANKS.SAMANTHA |
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Able Seaman William E Griffiths |
from: John McGregor, 4 Mar 2008, 15:58 |
| Hi Carol Thank you for your initiative with Radio Merseyside. I hope it works. Here are the two photos sent - William Griffiths is on the left and his sister Marjorie (your mum) on the right. We dont know the name of the other sailor. |
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neptune |
from: carol grace, 23 Feb 2008, 18:08 |
From Carol Grace
23rd Febuary 2008
Dear John my brother Brian found this site and told my sister Margaret Grace, who has contacted you and told me all about it. My uncle (Billy,)Abel Seaman William E Griffiths died while serving on H.M.S. Neptune,during the second world war.
Our mum Marjorie, often spoke to us about her brother. We are so gratefull for people like you who have set up this web site.
Margaret has the names of seamen who served on Neptune,who were from Liverpool, who's relatives maybe unaware of the site.
Margaret and i are going to contact radio merseyside,the A TEAM and ask them to help us find the relatives of seaman fom Liverpool, who served on the Neptune.
Tank you John |
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Able Seaman Ivo Palmer |
from: John McGregor, 23 Feb 2008, 10:11 |
| Dear Mary Ann I will send you an email with Gill West's address. She lives very close to you in Graveney outside Faversham. Here is a photo of Ivo's wedding to Gladys in 1939. |
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Ivo Palmer |
from: Mrs M Jarrtt, 22 Feb 2008, 15:09 |
Dear Mr McGregor
Back in the autumn of 2007 I sent you an e-mail on behalf of my friend regarding Able Seaman Ivo Palmer who was serving on HMS Neptune. My Friends would be very pleased to hear from Mrs Gill West of Sittingbourne who is the niece of Ivo Palmer. Mrs Gladys Palmer,Ivo Palmer's wife re-married a few years later. She then had a son who is called Ivor Luckhurst. Ivor has some pictures of Ivo Palmer and would love to make contact with Mrs Gill West.
My Friends Ivor and Sheila Luckhurst can be contacted either through my e-mai address or directly by telephone on 01227 752873 or by letter to their address:
Ivor Luckhurst
Woodland Cottage
Rhode Common
Selling
ME13 9PU
Kind regards
Mary Ann Jarrett |
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Alfred Jenkins |
from: John McGregor, 22 Feb 2008, 11:20 |
G'day Dean You are right - we are behindhand in attaching photos on the Roll of Honour. Alf's photo is now there but we have roughly another 50 to add.
Later - Alf's photo is now on the Roll of Honour |
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Alfred Jenkins |
from: Dean Smith, 19 Feb 2008, 08:25 |
G'day John,
I hope alls well. I have just checked the roll of honour page and noticed Alf's photo hasn't yet been included which was a little disappointing as I really feel it is important to include the photos where we can.Hope to se it up there soon!
I have been in contact with an ex Neptune sailor who lives just a little way down the road and he saw Neptune actually sail out on her last trip!
He was on a course for a few weeks and as such had been sent off to shore to complete it.
It turns out the course was cancelled and him and his mate rushed back to the docks to try to rejoin the ship but just missed her. I have met him a couple of times and am compiling some fantastic stories.
Regards
Dean Smith
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SAMUEL GROOM |
from: John McGregor, 18 Feb 2008, 07:52 |
Hi Julie Thanks for the interesting question! In sailing ship days your great grandfather would have been working in the quarterdeck part of the ship - (the after end). As a Petty Officer he would have been in charge of maybe 30 seamen dealing with the decks, the mast and rope rigging and the various ships boats. At 'action stations' the seamen would have manned the guns. The word 'afterguard' indicates he was in charge of the discipline.
Please see photo of his ship on the FORUM - 18 Nov 2007.
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HMS Neptune census 1861 |
from: Julie SCARROTT, 24 Jan 2008, 20:07 |
My 2 x Great Grandfather SAMUEL GROOM born 7th Oct 1817 in Portsmouth served on HMS Neptune and was stationed in Malta Harbour in 1861. He was Captain of the Afterguard and I gather he was a 2nd class working petty officer whom served on the quarter deck. Could anyone advise exactly what sort of job he did. Many thanks
Julie |
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Wireman Sidney Statham |
from: John McGregor, 23 Jan 2008, 07:26 |
Dear James I found it very moving to get your message about Sidney Statham of Helsby, Cheshire. If you look at the entry for 8 Aug 07 you will see my reply to Windy Gailes about his uncle - also a Wireman in Neptune who posted his photo from the Plymouth War Memorial showing the Wiremen killed in 1941 - nearly all Neptune casualties. You can see Sidney's name at the bottom.
Not only that but in January 2004 flowers were left by a relative of Sidney's - Mrs Norah Bdguszewski from Doncaster. I managed to find out her address and wrote but without reply. If you have his cap maybe you are related? How did it come into your possession? |
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HMSNEPTUNE |
from: james alvis, 19 Jan 2008, 20:11 |
I have a Hat with the name HMSNEPTUNE on it
it also has statham in pen on the inside
need info .thanks |
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